Ep 158: Hopefulness and Being Open to New Ideas with Jaclyn Fieberg and Dr. Matthew Lederman
Fertility Forward Episode 157:
During your infertility journey, it’s important to align yourself with an ethical physician who is going to be honest with you about when your plans need to pivot. Today, we’re joined by the wonderful Dr. Matthew Lederman and one of his former patients, Jaclyn Fieberg, to discuss her experience of family building. Tuning in, you’ll hear about Jaclyn's complex infertility story, what led her to Dr. Lederman, how she decided to consider donor eggs and eventually chose to use her sister as a surrogate, and more! We delve into the power of changing your mind as you evolve through your fertility journey before discussing the importance of finding a physician who is going to be open and honest with you and advocate for your best interests. Jaclyn even shares some tools she used to help her get through this incredibly challenging time. Finally, Dr. Lederman reminds us of the power of perseverance. To hear all this and be inspired to be open to new ideas, press play now!
Rena: Hi everyone. We are Rena and Dara and welcome to Fertility Forward. We are part of the wellness team at RMA of New York, a fertility clinic affiliated with Mount Sinai Hospital in New York City. Our Fertility Forward podcast brings together advice from medical professionals, mental health specialists, wellness experts, and patients because knowledge is power and you are your own best advocate.
Rena: I am so excited to welcome to Fertility Forward today, Dr. Matthew Lederman, a reproductive endocrinologist and recurring guest on the podcast. He is at RMA of New York. And his former patient Jaclyn Fieberg, who is coming on to share her story of family building. I'm so excited to have both of you on to talk about your journey together. Thank you so much for being here.
Jaclyn: Thanks for having us.
Dr. Lederman: Thanks for having us.
Rena: So who wants to, who wants to start with telling us your story?
Dr. Lederman: I think Jaclyn should, since it's such an amazing story and journey of a story I should say. So I think it's, you know, she can only, you know, I think express it the best.
Rena: Okay. Jaclyn, all yours.
Jaclyn: So do you want me to start like from the beginning or just the, the good part??
Rena: No tell we want all of it. Yeah, tell us, talk to us from the beginning when you first, you know, knew you were ready to become a mom.
Jaclyn: So I've always known I wanted to be a mom. I'm actually an elementary school teacher and I grew up, I have three sisters and I always grew up playing dolls and barbies and pretending to be the mom of my younger sisters. With that being said, when my husband and I got married in 2018, I was already 33 and my husband is seven years older than I am. So we kind of wanted to start having a family right away knowing age was not on our side. My eldest sister had actually been a patient of Dr. Lederman’s and had to use IVF to have her daughter. So I always was aware I had lots of friends that used IVF and I just had this weird feeling that having a baby wouldn't be easy. But everyone that I did know had success when they got medical help. So we went in for testing pretty early, my husband and I and initially my husband was told or he heard that he was infertile, which is interesting now in hindsight just 'cause of everything we found out. But we had, like, some serious conversations pretty early on 'cause he knew how much I wanted to be a mother, but he was sort of just shocked with the news of himself. But after meeting with doctors we found out that in fact he's not infertile. With IVF, they felt confident we could have a child. The beginning of our journey started, I did do one IUI at a different fertility clinic. At the time my insurance was not accepted by Dr. Lederman, which is the only reason I didn't start with him. I did not have success with IUI and switched right to IVF. And then my first round of IVF, the clinic I went to did things very differently than RMA in New York. They didn't really believe in genetic testing and they believed in fresh transfers, which I was so torn 'cause my sister came from the mentality of Dr. Lederman. But I went forward with it and I actually did get pregnant and I had been exited from my fertility clinic and this was all during COVID and 2020 and at my 12-week checkup there was no longer a heartbeat. So it was devastating. It was my husband's first and only appointment allowed in with me actually 'cause during that time no one was allowed to bring anybody to anything. You waited in your car and got called in one by one to the doctor. So I just remember I had a really bad feeling going into that appointment. I'd been, like, spotting a little bit and I didn't feel well. Anyway, it was beyond traumatic. And then I knew I had an option of obviously passing the fetus or having a DNC and I wanted to have the procedure. But again with Covid it was, I took, like, over two days to get into the hospital and that was with many calls being made because of everything going on at the hospital to say it was like devastating. I, you know, it was beyond. I was really excited and hopeful and it started off weak that pregnancy but then turned out it looked like everything was great and then it wasn't. So after that loss we did do testing on the, the fetus and nothing they said came back abnormal, but the doctor at the time suggested that I did further genetic testing on myself and Greg, which is my husband's name. So we did a karyotype testing and that's when they found out I have something called Mosaic Turner syndrome. I was told it was super low level, that it shouldn't impact my fertility and the doctor, like I mentioned, just moved forward. Like, basically he actually said to me like, you're gonna have more than one child and this is just a setback and kind of like really downplayed I think what was happening. Fast forward, I did a few more rounds. I had multiple failed rounds and I had a few transfers from, I did request genetic testing moving forward on the embryos that I did get to keep. And one you know, just didn't take. And then another one took, but it was a chemical pregnancy. I basically was pregnant and then the next call I wasn't so it was upsetting but you know, not like the first time I then switched doctors. Again, Dr. Lederman still wasn't accepting my insurance but I did meet with him. My sister was really adamant that I went and met with Dr. Lederman and I did and I remember her being like, if anyone can get you pregnant, it's Dr. Lederman and he's the best and all this stuff. And I remember seeing his face at his office in White Plains and he was like, I think I can get you there. And I remember just like having this awful gut feeling that like it wasn't gonna work out the way I was hoping. I was not happy to hear it. I wasn't thrilled with Dr. Lederman at the time because it wasn't what I'd been presented of, like, all these rainbows and lollipops. Like just keep trying, just keep trying. I did a different cycle with a different doctor. Again, I had absolutely zero success in between all these - I'm trying to go fast! Sorry! I had multiple procedures. I had like a hysteroscopy. I had a laparoscopy. They found out I had endometriosis, I did have a tube removed. I had done all of these things preparing myself for transfers. I had even done different medication forms and all sorts of things. And after that time RMA New York opened the office and our insurance was accepted at that point. And that's when I finally got to go to Dr. Lederman.
Rena: Wow! You really went through the wringer!
Jaclyn: Yeah.
Dr. Lederman: And it's not but it's not even over yet. That's the crazy thing. It's such a journey, you know, that's why I couldn't express could I'm close to tell it, you know, Jaclyn could do it because it's such a journey and there's more to it.
Rena: Wow.
Jaclyn: Yeah and I mean honestly anyone who's gone through infertility, I feel like not everyone, but that's how I felt. I just wanted so badly the baby that it was like I just like put blinders up. You know, my husband and I were disagreeing in terms of what to do. He was like, we should just stop. This is causing too much pain. And of course I was like how can you give up on being a mother? So it was a really awful time. And meeting Dr. Lederman, my husband and I felt immediately, Greg hadn't met him yet because of the consultation I went to earlier was more just preliminary. He was like, oh my god, thank God 'cause At home my husband was like, I feel like this other doctor is feeding us lies! Like he's making it sound so easy. And the second doctor I went to was more like Dr. Lederman was like, you need to go get your heart checked. You need to have a renal ultrasound. Like, you have some, you know, with this mosaic turner syndrome, like we need to look at all of these things. They did find out like I have a very small narrow aorta. I forget the medical term. I can't say it very well, not major. She, but in the beginning they told me I had to be on a beta blocker for the rest of my life and they were like scaring me about physically carrying the baby. I did end up going to Boston to a Mass General Hospital. I met with a Turner syndrome specialist, endocardiologist, which is when they said, although yes I do have a narrow aorta, they felt like my heart was operating okay and all that stuff. And I just, I think I'm one of those cases where it's like, maybe it will happen for you but you have a lot of things stacked against you. And Dr. Lederman said, you know, I will try you a cycle 'cause I had never done it with him before but he's like, we do need to have a plan B, you know, to go keep putting yourself through this is a little bit insane at this point. Especially as my results were like getting like worse.
Rena: Yeah. What was your mental state like by the time you got to Dr. Lederman and…
Jaclyn: I mean the whole, I mean I would honestly I was, I saw a therapist every single week. I was not in a good place. I really shut down tremendously. I'm a talker by nature, but it was so hard to even talk to people 'cause so many people were like, oh just I was the same way as you. But then look now I have my two kids and you know, or look, I got twins and in the meantime my sister who, a different sister, and I had been pregnant at the same time that first time in 2020, she had gone on to have twin boys and you know, I'm so happy for her. But it was just, you know, hard. It was like my one aunt said like, why couldn't like you get one of them? You know, like, why'd she have to get two and you only, you know, you get none. And you know, it was just hard and I, I struggled a lot but I still had that mentality of just like keep trying because I kept thinking I'd be that story. So we did a round with Dr. Lederman and honestly Dr. Lederman, you have to remind me my first round, I wanna say I maybe got one embryo? I have my notes somewhere. I'm sorry I didn't print them. And then I did one more cycle with you. I know that. I did up to, I did seven rounds of IVF total on my myself, full rounds.
Rena: Oh wow.
Jaclyn: And one of them came back, there was one embryo who was not fully gone yet.
Dr. Lederman: The first, the first cycle you had the mosaic, you had the day seven embryo, that was indetermined, then re-biopsied and came back normal.
Jaclyn: That was the one that was really tricky.
Dr. Lederman: And then the second cycle, we, we didn't, we didn't get any embryos to biopsy.
Jaclyn: That was my final one. So number six with Dr. Lederman, which was number one with him that I remember I was in Sag Harbor actually with friends and he had called saying like one of my embryos even though it was a day seven was looking good. And then that next day the call came that it had no longer viable anymore but I already thought it had been like frozen and was like an option, you know? So it was just hard. So we had one embryo then to try and I did the transfer with Dr. Lederman and ironically this man at the post office told my mom that he drove to this church in Pennsylvania and that's where you get pregnant. And my mom and I got in the car that day and drove there and lit all these candles and did all these things. I'm not religious at all, but we did all this stuff. And it was like in Scranton, Pennsylvania, it was terrible. And I actually did get pregnant.
Rena: Oh wow!
Jaclyn: And I really felt like that was like the one, I was like, this is the turnaround. Like I'm with Dr. Lederman, this is the embryo that like kept tricking us. And unfortunately, I think it was my week seven appointment, Dr. Letterman, he had, I knew it wasn't good going into it. Greg, again, was his first time invited to come to the appointment and unfortunately there was just no heartbeat.
Rena: Wow. How devastating.
Jaclyn: And I then had to go to work for my first day of school. I do remember that it was my very first day and I teach kindergarten. So I actually went to school after the appointment and you know, it was just terrible. So Dr. Lederman had been working with my family. I have three sisters, I mentioned that earlier and they had along the years been saying like, whatever you need, we'll help you with whatever you need us to do. So they all met with Dr. Lederman and had their eggs checked. At that point, conversations were being had at home and with Dr. Lederman about the use of donor. I was dead set against it earlier in my journey. I would've never thought my daughter would be here the way she is. Never would've thought I would've done it this way. But each time something happened it's like you change your thoughts or you like you said, How did you feel? It just changed and after do you wanna explain? I feel like I'm talking so much, Dr. Lederman.
Dr. Lederman: No, you're, you're telling it perfectly I think.
Jaclyn: Okay. So with my, my oldest, my, I have one older sister named Stephanie and that's the sister who did IVF with Dr. Lederman for her daughter. But then actually naturally had her son surprisingly like two years later which was again like a great gift. Biggest surprise of her life, she never thought it would happen! But she had had low ovarian reserve like I did and all this stuff and she's older than even I am. So Dr. Lederman said she probably isn't our best candidate in terms of a donor. And then my sister, Meredith, she's four years younger than I am, she's the one who has twin boys and she went in and her eggs’ quality look great. And then my youngest sister, who is actually eight years younger than I am, looked also really, really great. Because of her not having children, her not being married and all that, we didn't think she was a good match from that perspective. And my sister Meredith, I remember, called me and she's like, I wanna do this for you. And this was after round seven with Dr. Lederman when we knew I was no longer cycling myself. That was like, you know, a really, that still is the hardest part for me of everything. I wanted to do it so badly so that was just a really a huge devastating loss. But I was so grateful I had sisters because to me it was the next closest thing to myself. With Dr. Lederman’s help, I had met with Dr. Witkin who's amazing and she made me feel so much different about donor egg conception. So I really felt like my perspective changed. And I met with, I think her name's Teresa, right, Dr. Lederman?
Dr. Lederman: Geneticist, Yep.
Jaclyn: She was amazing as well. So like I spoke to so many experts that just made me feel and see things not as black and white as I'm not a doctor. I didn't know. I just thought basically I'd be having my sister's baby. And then after talking to these experts I realized, you know, I'm using her cells and it's the same as if I needed a kidney transplant and all of these different things. I then also did another hysteroscopy and went into the City and did this whole thing to check my uterus and see everything was going before that transfer of the donated,
Dr. Lederman: You saw Dr. Rosen right? You know…
Jaclyn: Yes, and you set me up with her as well. And I should tell you actually, so my sister Meredith jumped, she did a round of IVF for us and it was, I know we got the results in December of 2023. It must have been 2023 I think. And should, we got back 10 genetically normal embryos, which was just like shocking if five of them are boys and five of them are girls and Greg and I found out in Germany because we went away for Christmas that year 'cause we just were like, we needed to get away from everything. And I had hope again. It was the first time I felt hopeful. So I, I met with Dr., you said Rosen, is that what you said Doctor?
Rena: Yeah.
Dr. Lederman: Yeah. Dr. Rosen, Dr. Rosen.
Jaclyn: And she was amazing. And she had said like, you know, my uterus looked like okay, like she's like I, you know, not seeing anything. I didn't see endometriosis again. So I went in really hopeful 'cause I was at that point really wanting to carry the baby, especially knowing it wasn't my egg. And I did the transfer and unfortunately it didn't take, and I think at that point, you know, it was almost going on over a little, almost over four years of trying. And I put my body through so much. I even had done like mock trials and other different medications when I was seeing when I should do a transfer. And I had done, what's the testing called? Excuse me for being so forgetful, where they like tear a piece of your uterus
Dr. Lederman: The endometrial biopsy?
Jaclyn: Yes, I did had done all of that stuff as well. So I was so disappointed and just mad at my body again when it didn't take the transfer because I was like, I know this isn't a good embryo. And I, I think I just realized like my body, like maybe all the signs were pointing to the fact that I wasn't supposed to carry the baby. And I got really nervous because of what some of the other doctors had said, like with even my heart. And they're like, well we'd have to monitor you more and this that. And my sister Stephanie, she had said to me, she's like, I'll do this for you. She had always said that. And I remember I was really in my own head about it first and then talking to Greg and I was away with my sister Stephanie, my mom, and her two kids in Pennsylvania just for like a weekend getaway. And I, I asked her if she would do it at the hotel and we called Dr. Lederman and I was on the side of the road in like Amish country and he sort of said, okay, let's try to get this expedited. And through that he had helped us so much with my sister Meredith as well with the egg retrieval. Like everything happened so seamlessly. It really was, they did such a phenomenal job. All the stress that usually comes with did not happen. Like, Meredith went to the city, she got her medication, she came home, she did the round of IVF and did a retrieval and it was just, everything went so beautifully with that. And then sort of the same thing with my sister. He checked her for her lining, he started the progesterone and we started all the shots and I was able to inject my sister for all of her medications and I was able to go to every single one of her appointments, including her transfer, which ended up being on May 24th, 2024 was Emerson's transfer date. And we were so hopeful. And on June 2nd was the pregnancy result test, which was my mom's birthday. And I remember I took off from school and I was with my sister because I was like, I could not even breathe. We were so nervous because at this point it was, everything was relying on this and they called and said that Stephanie was pregnant. And truly everything went well, the whole pregnancy. I didn't breathe or think positively the entire nine months, but everything did go well. Like the heartbeat was strong from the get go. The baby was growing at the rate, like all of the appointments I had ever experienced, even in my very short pregnancies were never good and it was so strange to see what normal people maybe go through. And even when we exited Dr. Lederman and went off to Dr. Burke, who was amazing as well, every single appointment was perfect. And then on February 1st, 2024, Emerson was born and she was like a perfect little baby. And she's actually nine months old exactly today.
Rena: Oh happy birthday Emerson.
Dr. Lederman: Nine months today. Wow.
Rena: Wow. Nine months.
Jaclyn: Yeah. And Stephanie's water broke early. She was supposed to have a scheduled C-section. We were supposed to have it on February 5th, but she actually went to her daughter's classroom in first grade and her water broke in the classroom.
Rena: Oh my god.
Jaclyn: And I was actually homesick with Covid Covid with covid. Greg had covid and it was like typical of our story of like not going well, but it was all perfect in the end. But it was like crazy up until the very minute she entered the world.
Rena: Wow. What an amazing, so this was what like about a three year journey?
Jaclyn: Almost four.
Rena: Almost four.
Jaclyn: I mean we were trying obviously without medical intervention from like Mar but then almost four years of medical help.
Rena: Wow.
Jaclyn: Not quite, not quite, but almost.
Rena: Wow. What an incredible story. Good,
Dr. Lederman: I'll, I'll never forget the night on that couch when you delivered, when I got an email bull from you and from Stephanie with the update. I remember just watching, you know, it was like, I think it was midweek and I was watching some DVR, you know, something on the DVR with my wife and I like, you know, I checked my emails incessantly and I remember seeing that amazing email, you know, like I think first from Stephanie and then from you, you know, or I remember who was first both with pictures and updates and I was so excited for your family.
Jaclyn: Yeah, it really was. And the hospital was amazing and it was just such a weird experience but yet it really was perfect in the end and all the things that all these professionals told me like, it's your baby. And I felt that even though I didn't grow her and all of that, I know I'm her mom.
Rena: And I wanted to interject when you said that. So Dr. Witkin is our psychologist at RMA who specializes in third party counseling. So people that are using donor and just to touch upon the importance of, you know, so many people when presented with, you know, you may need to use a donor or a surrogate, it's obviously very difficult. Most people don't go into trying to conceive wanting to do that. And so I think to touch upon, you know how you said, you know, working with professionals really helped you with mindset shifting and understanding and I think to really stress that that is really important to the process. You know, talking to professionals to help you grasp and understand and go through the process of doing a mental shift. And there's a grieving process too.
Jaclyn: She, Dr. Witkin truly is amazing and I mean she really is she, the way she speaks, you just wanna keep listening to her talk anyway. But she explains things in such a normal way like so anyone without a medical training can understand but really put things in a, a shift of a perspective. And it's funny, like I find myself, you know, sometimes people will say, oh so like, so it's your sisters and my sister's like no it's my cells. Like, you know, it's just so funny how little change of words made so much easier for me and truly like I understand the process more than I did going into it. I really did feel so different about it than I do now.
Dr. Lederman: It's amazing how many patients I've had who've had reservations about the donor egg process, you know, just the way they think of stuff and they say, you know what, just speak to Dr. Witkin. Just, she makes patients often kind of look at it from a different perspective and not the way you would normally think to look at it. And oftentimes afterwards you're like, wow, I never thought like that. And oh, that does make sense. You know, and she's changed so many patients’ perspective of third party reproduction by just looking at it from a slightly different perspective, you know? And the number of patients have come back to me, just like you Jaclyn, and said, oh wow, you know, you would change their perspective after speaking with her. And so sometimes my patient on the fence, I just speak to her, just speak to her and then we'll go from there, you know?
Jaclyn: Yeah. I mean if you hadn't done that or recommended that I do that, I don't know where I'd be. And I, you know, I can see how people do do 12, 13, 14 rounds of IVF because truly that's where I would've gone. I would've kept trying. But I'm so thankful that Dr. Lederman. I feel like his ethical code is so strong and he really, like, put limits on me in a fair way. Like I was, I deserved it. Seven tries with basically horrible results. But I think that one pregnancy at the very beginning really, like, tricked me because I was like, oh my gosh, like you know, I, I can get pregnant and the baby was fine. Something I totally forgot to share actually, which is what also helped change my mind after the last loss, which is number, the third one with Dr. Lederman, you had suggested I do that special testing on the fetus. Do you remember that?
Dr. Lederman: Yep.
Jaclyn: I remember calling and at that point, you know, we'd spent so much money and I was like, well what's the point? You already told me I can't use my eggs anymore anyway. And I remember I called you to say, I don't think I wanna do this testing, like I'm just gonna accept it. It was already a genetically tested embryo, remember? And it had been double tested because the first time it had come back inconclusive.
Dr. Lederman: Yep.
Jaclyn: And I remember you called me with the results and the fetus had multiple chromosomal issues.
Dr. Lederman: It was a mosaic embryo, which means some of the cells are normal but some are not. So when you biopsy the embryo, you just take from a cluster of cells. So if you get the normal cells it looks normal. You know, in this case when you with the miscarriage you're getting multiple different cells. So there's more to analyze and it, you know, came back as a mosaic embryo, which was, there was a reason why there's a miscarriage and you know, one of the slight limitations of the biopsy, you know when you biopsy the embryo check the chromosome genetics, it's pretty accurate but it's not perfect because you're only getting a subset. So if you have a mosaic embryo, if you just biopsy where the normal cells were, that's when it's gonna come back. And you know, you know, when you have a genetically normal embryo, it doesn't completely eliminate miscarriage but it greatly reduces it. This case, you know, most of the time when you, someone does have a miscarriage and you check the genetics, it comes back, you know, normal. Once rare situation you get like this kind of situation where it was a mosaic embryo so there was actually a genetic reason why it miscarried, you know, and I, I think that helped you, you know, Jaclyn 'cause you've been through numerous stimulation cycles when you finally got an embryo, you know, either didn't implant or a miscarriage. Both like recurrent implantation, recurrent miscarriage. So it, there was hard to just get an embryo and when you got one it just didn't stick or stuck and then it miscarried, you know.
Jaclyn: Yeah. But getting that call from, I remember I was actually so grateful you did push me to get that testing and it made me feel, I'm like, you know what? I honestly question and believe the first pregnancy I lost at the 12 weeks, I bet you that that fetus was not normal as well. It was like just what my gut tells me 'cause we didn't do the special testing so it makes sense. And it wasn't even a tested embryo that one. And so it just solidified that like I really do need to move to the donor process. And that's when Meredith did her portion for us. And then with the surrogacy piece that was like, you know, the final straw. I had a harder time coming to terms with donor than I did with surrogacy at that point. I was like, I really just wanna be a mom and my body is clearly not able to do this for whatever reason. And when Stephanie went forward and did it, it worked out, thank God. And we now can say we're parents.
Rena: What an amazing, amazing story and what a gift you have of family and sisters. And you know, I think as you touched upon too, Dr. Lederman, who I think was very honest and ethical, you know, I think that's something unfortunately you'll find in this industry is you'll find physicians sometimes who will just keep cycling you and it's really important to trust your doctor and these are difficult conversations. It's really hard to hear from somebody like, look, we've come to the end of the road here. You need to consider an alternative pathway. That is really, really tough to hear. But I think it's really important that you align yourself with an ethical physician who's going to do that for you instead of letting you keep going when that's not the right road to take.
Jaclyn: Absolutely. I mean that's my biggest regret in the whole thing. Like again, the only reason we didn't go to Lederman is because of insurance, which you know, you do kind of need to have 'cause of how costly IVF is. But I wanted to hear what I was hearing and I feel like that's where my husband and I were having conflict. 'cause He was like, Jaclyn, like things, he's like, I'm no doctor, this isn't looking good. And I would be like, no, you know, this doctor said and dah dah dah. And I was just wanting to hear what he said because it sounded much better. You know, it just sounded like, no, we just have to, but then it became like mentally it really was so taxing on me at that point with him I think I had done four of my rounds. So, and then I did the one round with a different doctor who really aligned more with Dr. Lederman’s principles and made me do a lot of things that I didn't even have to do. And she's like, I won't even cycle you until you do them. And that's when I also had that red flag up. I was like, wow, I feel like I've just been tricked the past two years of my life almost here where like he's blowing off all this stuff and she's telling me she won't even let me do a retrieval without doing these things. So going to someone who questions you and who pushes you a little bit more is really the right answer even though it's really challenging you don't like
Rena: Yeah, I think that's a, it's a great point. I think that's a really important takeaway. And you know, I see that all the time unfortunately. And I think that's why it is really important to go through this with, you know, a mental health provider if you can because you know, just how you spoke to how Dr. Witkin helped change your perspective in terms of using a donor and then a surrogate. You know, if you're having a hard time with just whatever it may be in the process, you know, working with a mental health provider can help with a perspective shift on anything, right? And sometimes it is just about having someone help you see something in a different way that can open you up and break down barriers that you might be putting in front of yourself. And I think that it's, it's really important to have that and have that person in your corner if you can.
Jaclyn: I agree. I think it's mandatory. I think it's so heavy this topic, especially like having a child isn't something you just like one day either don't want, you know, usually you either always have wanted a kid or you've come to terms with, you definitely want children or you don't. It's not something like, oh should we paint the house blue or pink? Like it's, it's a big life changing decision and it does get heavy. And if you have friends with kids and if you are like me and you work with kids and stuff, people ask you all day, oh when are you having kids? Or how come you don't have kids? And you know, it was so hard.
Dr. Lederman: You spend most of life trying to like not get pregnant and when you try and it's not easy, It's, you know, it's emotional and then when you try and you go through a like you know, every fertility journey is different. Some have very short journeys, some have medium, some have these ridiculously long journeys like you did Jaclyn. And it's, you know, emotionally taxing to go through this and you had one of these really crazy long journeys with highs and lows. It was a true, you know, rollercoaster. One thing I admire about you is your perseverance, you know, throughout this 'cause you know some patients will give up and you just persevered. And everyone’s story is different. Some like, should I do another cycle? It may be hard with them emotionally and physically or it's financial like you know, there's emotional, physical perseverance, there's financial perseverance, and everyone reaches a different tipping point of like, all right, I tried what I could, should I try something else? And everyone is so different when they get to that tipping point. And sometimes it's not always to hear like, oh should I be using an egg donor? Should I be having someone else carry just based on what you had to go through. And it's hard to hear it but I can't imagine as a patient hearing those kind of things, it's hard to hear
Jaclyn: Especially like some women you meet or some men they're like told you are 100% infertile. Like, you literally don't have sperm or you have no eggs or you, you know, you had a hysterectomy. Like it's, there's no choice. I think it's so hard for so many women, like it is a gray area. Like, there's women I've met that have gone through 10 years of infertility and then they get pregnant naturally. Like, you hear these crazy stories. So there's always that hope I think when you, like, have even like that one little percent chance. So I think like for me, I always hung onto that whereas I've like admired some of the women I follow. Like I did one or two rounds of IVF, I couldn't stand it any more and I moved on and I adopted a baby or I moved on to donor egg and I've, you know, everyone's so different and you know, unfortunately even with my journey, like some people, as much as you're saying it's positive, I, some people said rude comments or why didn't you just do this? Or maybe you're not meant to be a mother. Or people unfortunately have sometimes skewed, skewed opinions of what you should or shouldn't do or say mean things. But I am really confident with the decision we made and I didn't feel that way, you know, going into it as much. But as I kept talking to professionals and getting help, I really am very comfortable with the choice to make given our circumstances.
Rena: That's really beautiful. And I think your story can help so many. And it sounds like, I mean, you know that you sort of went through peaks and valleys of this where you had hope. You didn't have hope. I mean you were hit with so many things and it seems like you just kept keeping on though. Can you maybe tell listeners what was something that helped you get through these, I mean what were years of really tough time? What was something that helped you through this?
Jaclyn: I always hung on to the fact that I was gonna be a mother. So I said like I don't know how I, you know, I had adoption agency phone numbers, I wasn't ready to call them yet. I spoke to multiple different doctors along the way, but I never could see my life like without a baby in it. I just could not see that. So for me, I found talking helped some people keep this journey super private. I'm obviously the opposite and truly the only reason I do come on to like a podcast or go on TV or whatever it will be is strictly to help someone else. I felt so isolated in my journey so, so isolated, especially with the donor egg. I feel like even in like celebrity world, it's assumed many celebrities of a certain age probably did use a donor or probably did at that age need some more help. But it's kind of seemingly, I think still considered taboo because people aren't educated on it as much and they might get criticism from people. So I would Google all sorts of things like anyone who use a donor egg and then donor plus a surrogate and all these things and it's basically nothing. So I speak out strictly because I'm like, if there's that one family that's that one woman that's questioning it, maybe she'll feel like a little more hopeful. And on social media there are groups and things like that. I found that very helpful as well. But sometimes it's also depressing, you know, to surround yourself in this IVF or donor egg world too. So I think you have to do what's right for you. But my one piece of advice is truly not to give up 'cause there is a way, it's probably not gonna look how you want it to if you're in that place, but it will all be worth it. And I can tell you now looking at Emerson, Dr. Witkin said, I would say this, but it's actually true. Like I don't wish the journey I had on myself or anyone, but I would not change it now 'cause Emerson is so amazing. Like I really mean that. Like I know everyone loves their baby and feels that way, but I'm like, she's so perfect, she's such a happy little baby. And I hope from her perspective the most that she learns as she learns her way of life is just to know how badly, not only like we wanted her, Greg and I, but like my sisters wanted me to be a mom that badly. My parents wanted me to be a mom that badly. My friends, like everyone that was Dr. Lederman wanted me to be a mom that badly. We were all like rooting for us to, to get what we wanted. And we do have her now. And honestly it, it was worth it even though it wasn't enjoyable. So that's what I would say.
Rena: That's so beautiful. And I find that most people, when they're sort of on the other side, you know, when they're in it they say, you know, we talk a lot and they say, I don't know how I'm ever gonna spin this as this was, you know, a gift in my life. Or that there was like, I just wanna be out of this. I don't know why this is happening to me. We work a lot, I work a lot, you know, on mindset shifting or or changing language. And then as you experience when you're, when you're on the other side, it's of course it's a lot easier to look back and say, wow, I wouldn't change anything and this was my narrative. And you know, as you're saying, look at this amazing story you have for Emerson to know how badly she was wanted and this narrative that you, that you have for her, what a gift to give her. And then something else I wanted to touch upon that you said was the importance of talking about this. Research really shows that the people that go through this alone and isolated and don't talk about it have higher levels of anxiety and depression. And so I think it is really important to highlight that, you know, it doesn't, there's no right or wrong with who you should talk to. It could be a partner, friends, family, therapist, support group, you know, the who you're talking to is variable that's not prescribed, but it's just important that you are talking to somebody or more than one person about this because that's gonna help decrease the mental health side effects of this. It's really important to do that and set yourself up with a village of people to speak with.
Jaclyn: Definitely. I, I don't know how people go through this and don't talk about it or never told, like I've met people even now and like, well you know, my child's now 30 years old. But we didn't tell a soul 'cause you know, back 30 years ago it was even more taboo. And I, and I'm just like, wow, I cannot imagine not talking about it. And I, I will say for me each time it got worse. Like, you know, the first round I'm like, okay, it was devastating but okay and this that it's, it's really hard and everyone's threshold is different, you know, for that. But it's definitely a really hard, dark journey, especially when you see so much happiness with babies and it's come so easily for some people or, or not even easily, but they got there. And I think that it's true. That other side is a real thing because even today with it being nine months, I'm like, oh wow, nine months of which it really wasn't nine months 'cause it was years and years, but the nine months of her pregnancy felt like years of my life and every single appointment I would be rubbing our stone and doing our holy oil. I'm like, all these crazy ritual things. Just hoping. And now I'm like, wow, nine months out has flown by and time has picked back up again. But I think that that part of my life is just like a big black hole of Groundhog Day every single day. And I was just in my head about it all the time. Even with professional help and even with talking, it's so consuming.
Rena: Sure. And you get negatively conditioned, you know, if you keep getting bad news, it's what you're primed to expect. And so rewiring yourself that, wait a second, now I'm actually getting positive reinforcement. I'm getting good news. It's almost uncomfortable. You have to teach yourself to live in a space of happiness. If you've been conditioned to live in a space of discomfort and negativity, it's like, wait a second, hold on, what am I feeling? Wait, that's weird. I actually feel happy. Hold on, let me sit in that because it's been so long since I felt that and that's almost uncomfortable.
Jaclyn: True. Yeah.
Rena: So I guess any final thoughts from you Jacqueline or you Dr. Lederman, on your journey or the experience that you think would resonate with listeners? Anything that you wanna share?
Dr. Lederman: A theme is, you know, perseverance. Some journeys require extreme perseverance and most who persevere will get there. Not all. And in, you know, Jaclyn’s case, she didn't get there the way she initially was hoping to, but she's still able to get there at the end. Went with the donor egg with her, her sister with a gestational carrier. So most with perseverance will get there. They most will will be able to get pregnant if they will persevere. Unfortunately that's not all, you know, not that's not a hundred percent, but there are options that still to be a mom and how to be a mom.
Rena: That's a great point. And perseverance, what a powerful word. I love that. What about you Jaclyn?
Jaclyn: I mean I think that the main thing is truly the biggest thing is I think having a doctor who you trust and believe in but also is real with you. I think that's like the biggest takeaway is finding a and a really good clinic. Like RMA New York is amazing. Like they have great labs, they have great success stories. I think do your research on that. All the places I've been to really are considered great places. I live in New York, like we're, we have great access to things but, and I think having a team, a networking team of support like you mentioned on is absolutely critical. And I think still giving yourself room to have hope and being open-minded is the biggest thing. Like, you know, if you're someone like me who is continuously not getting the results you want, I think at least just give yourself the chance to be open to hearing something else out because I know in the beginning for me it was just, I was very angry at anyone who suggested alternatives to me at all. So I think just hearing other ideas and when you're ready explore it 'cause I do think it's about timing. You know, I wouldn't have jumped in on round two to donor and surrogate, I just wasn't ready. However, had I been presented my options and a little more reality of my medical case, I don't know. So I feel like I can only say what I know on my point. And I think having someone like Dr. Lederman who's really explaining things to you and making you feel like you understand yourself more and the situation is helpful and then trusting the process.
Dr. Lederman: Most feel like they have to try before they go with the alternatives. And try how much you try. It differs for everyone. So I don't think, even if like in the second cycle, even if that was with us, I would've said, you know, let's keep going. You know what, you don't think you're there yet because everyone needs to try before they kind of take that next step. So I don't think that would've necessarily changed for you. Even if I, we took your alternative, you were seeing, I would probably say let's keep going. There are other options. But at some point we may have to revisit it, but early on you wanna still feel like you've tried your best before jumping to alternatives. And everyone's where they gave it their try their best differs.
Jaclyn: And I think just for me, my biggest concern was once I did change the way we were gonna have a baby, I was really worried of how I would feel about being a mom. Like, you know, like, does it feel real and do I, I sometimes have like a little weird guilt. Like my, my sister actually the one who has twins, she just had a baby two weeks ago, she had her third son.
Dr. Lederman: Oh Congratulations. Congratulations.
Jaclyn: So I have a new nephew, you know like the physical part, like I saw her belly grow and she's like sore after having a baby. And I'm like, well that's the one bonus like, I wasn't sore like, you know, I was able to jump into being a mom like right away. Like you try to spin it because it's just not what you envisioned. Like it's just different. That can be a little hard, but the baby is your baby as soon as the baby's out and I felt that. And she was my responsibility and I think that the biggest fear of me was not feeling like the mother and I do, I know I'm the mom. So I think that that's the biggest thing. And she knows I'm her mom, you know, I'm her favorite person. She's with me all the time. So I think that's always the case, right? In any family, if you show love and all that, you're gonna get it back. And I think she knows she's very loved.
Rena: That's so beautiful. I love that. Well thank you so much for coming on to share your story. Dr. Lederman, thank you so much for joining. The way we like to end our podcast is by saying something that we're grateful for and how appropriate today with such an amazing story. So something that you each are grateful for today.
Jaclyn: I mean for me it's easy. I'm grateful for Emerson, my daughter, and our health.
Rena: What about you Dr. Lederman?
Dr. Lederman: I'm grateful for my family. I'm also grateful for Jaclyn sharing their story. So the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10, 20 wannabe mothers hear the story and make some kind of change based on hearing her story to, you know, hopefully one day be able to be a mom and you know, learning that they're not alone and with perseverance, with some alternative options, they could still be a mom.
Rena: I love that. And I'll say I am grateful for strong women and Dr. Lederman, I don't wanna leave you out of this, grateful for your amazing care, but these strong women, you know, and the, the strength, you know Jaclyn, what incredible strength to get through this. I'm running the marathon on Sunday and this year I'm dedicating it to strong women and Dr. Lederman . Of course you got a special mind because
Jaclyn: Well I was gonna say I have to have him in. I'm grateful for Dr. Letterman as favorite doctor in the whole world.
Rena: He gets the honorable mention, we don't wanna leave him out 'cause he really is such..
Dr. Lederman: That's okay. Good luck, Rena, with the marathon.
Jaclyn: Wow, that's amazing. Good for you.
Rena: Thank you so much for coming on and your bravery and your strength and sharing. I know that this will really resonate with, with people and, and help somebody else. So thank you so much for coming on,
Jaclyn: Thanks for having me. Good luck running. I admire you. I'm gonna to tell you that's not a strength of mine, running
Rena: Well I admire you
Jaclyn: So well, thank you.
Rena: Thank you so much.
Dara: Thank you so much for listening today and always remember: practice gratitude, give a little love to someone else and yourself, and remember: you are not alone. Find us on Instagram @fertility_forward and if you're looking for more support, visit us at www.rmany.com and tune in next week for more Fertility Forward.