Ep 140: A Whole Systems Approach to Fertility with Dr. Beck Hoehn
Fertility Forward Episode 140:
Are you considering acupuncture on your fertility journey? Well, this is the podcast for you! Today, we are joined by Dr. Beck Hoehn, a Los Angeles-based board-certified acupuncturist who treats pain, digestive disorders, stress, and hormonal imbalances and specializes in supporting women’s wellness and fertility. Dr. Hoehn challenges her patients to look beyond the quick fixes offered by Western medicine and adopt a more holistic “whole systems” approach to optimizing their health. In this episode, Dr. Hoehn shares her advice for those trying to conceive and offers us some insight into her work at the intersection of Eastern philosophy, functional medicine, and Western fertility interventions. To find out how integrative medicine (including traditional Chinese herbs) can increase your chances of success with fertility treatment, lower stress and anxiety, and improve your overall wellbeing, don’t miss this fascinating and insightful conversation with Dr. Beck Hoehn!
Rena: Hi everyone, we are Rena and Dara, and welcome to Fertility Forward. We are part of the wellness team at RMA of New York, a fertility clinic affiliated with Mount Sinai Hospital in New York City. Our Fertility Forward podcast brings together advice for medical professionals, mental health specialties, and medical professionals. wellness experts, and patients because knowledge is power and you are your own best advocate.
Rena: We are so excited to welcome to Fertility Forward today Dr. Beck Hohen.
Dara: Dr. Beck Hohen is a Los Angeles based board certified acupuncturist who treats pain, digestive disorders, stress, and hormonal imbalances and specializes in supporting women's wellness and fertility. Dr. Hoehn received a master's degree with honors from the Emperor's College of Oriental Medicine and her doctorate and fertility acupuncture from the Pacific College of Health Sciences. She is board certified both nationally and in the state of California and in addition she is also an active member of the American Board of Reproductive medicine or ABORM. Through ABORM, she pursued additional specialized training in reproductive health and fertility acupuncture, which is phenomenal. You've accomplished so much, Dr. Hoehn, and I'm very excited for our listeners to hear your story, which is very interesting. I listened to your Instagram feeds and found out that acupuncture wasn't your first passion, how you got into this kind of through a different route.
Dr. Hoehn: Yeah, totally. I actually also believe that in my, when I talk to my patients about, you never know where life is gonna take you, right? And this is just, making a baby is just another iteration of your life path, right? So I started out in the film business and I was in camera and I got injured at work pretty bad. And then as a result, I went to acupuncture and it was so transformational for me. I actually got back to work and got back into the saddle. And then also at the same time, I used to have horrible periods that were really painful. And I don't know if it was intentional or not,
but my acupuncturist was a person that really made them essentially go away. So I then felt, yeah, and it was so transformative at the time that I felt like I couldn't even believe that. You know, my generation is told that you just wake up and go to work and deal with these painful periods, and that's completely normal. And I felt like I really needed to change the narrative a little bit. So I decided to go back to school so that specifically I could help camera women in general, just because that was my tribe at the time. I still am friends with people I've known for 25 years and I felt like I really needed to serve that community. They professionally develop in a really toxic environment. It's really painful and like people just don't know how hard it is to labor and have to go to work with painful periods. So, I felt like I really needed to serve my community. And then it just kind of grew from there, right? It was just more into, I really love to watch people change and evolve and learn about Eastern philosophies and TCM frameworks and and how it can really change their lives while on the road to motherhood. So then I started really taking a deeper dive into that medicine and really with a generalist kind of training.
Rena: Wow, that is so fantastic. I love that you took your pain into purpose as so many people that we’ve interviewed, you know, on this podcast share in part of that pain and the purpose passing into into purpose. Instead of sort of being a victim, you said, what is this teaching me? What can I learn from this? And it really sounds like you really pivoted your life, and now you're living out your passion, which is incredible.
Dr. Hoehn: Yeah, and I love that you just said that to me because it really brings in my next iteration of my life, just feels like I need to teach people, empower people through education, right? So I think it's really incredible. to like no one needs to suffer that way. There's always another answer. And I think that in more traditional interventions like Western intervention, we get really siloed into believing that there's only one way and it's ie the pill or some other thing in reproductive health and I challenge my patients all day long to look beyond that and to try to work on incorporating nutrition as one of their primary pillars of life and health and optimization. And also learn about Chinese herbs, right? Because they're so powerful and really an inexpensive way to heal and equip yourself, right?
Dara: Yeah, there was a course in nutrition school when I was doing my master's and they had like, I forget what they called it, but it's a sort of like alternative nutrition course. And at the time I was definitely much more western, you know, I believed a lot in western medicine. I thought this was so crazy. And looking back, I'm like, why didn't I take that class? It would have really served me. But now I have people like you who can, you know, teach us, teach me, you know, give us some insight, inside scoop. I love this approach that I believe you, you termed it the whole systems medicine approach.
Dr. Hoehn: Yeah.
Dara: Which I find very fascinating. Can you discuss, talk more about that?
Dr. Hoehn: Yeah. Well, I think this also calls from your experience, right? With nutrition as well is that you know, you're not only looking at really nutrition when you practice.
I mean, there's no way. You're looking at the whole system is the whole person, right? And we talk about this all the time and integrated health, but TCM takes it to a new level where I think the Eastern philosophy of really understanding your place between heaven and earth is very important. One of the modules that I have in my class is all about earth grounding, right? So it's just like, it feels like when I first wrote that chapter, I was like, oh my God, I'm such an idiot. But then I started having people do it, and it does regulate cortisol. To really understand your context in nature is one of the, I think it should be one of the arms of how you heal your body and make a baby. And I try to have people, even if it's just something as very simple as you guys live in New York, right? So even if you had a pot of herbs on your balcony or some way so that you can connect with plant medicine, connect with plants and really understand, like go outside and see the sky, people. Like I live in Los Angeles - I can't even tell you how many of my patients don't go outside on the weekends and understand what that looks like.
Rena: Yeah, okay, so for our listeners there, just interject. Tell them what is earth grounding.
Dr. Hoehn: Oh, sorry.
Rena: Oh, and also sorry I’ll interject, too, TCM, or Traditional Chinese Medicine.
Dr. Hoehn: Oh, Traditional Chinese Medicine, yeah, yeah. We're in the middle of kind of changing that vernacular as well as a profession so it's just very nebulous right now. But whole systems medicine relates to looking at every aspect of the life just really quickly.
And so we look at how you are living in your home, how you are living in nature, the toxic environment that may be happening at work, right? And then everything, your food, your water, the light, your air filtration, all of these things kind of come into play. And then we try to complement where you are in your life using a really great point selection with acupuncture and then herbs. So I wanted to, sorry, thank you for stopping me. I just wanted to talk about whole systems medicine really quickly. And then earth grounding is just taking your shoes off and really simply just walking in the grass or walking outside. Maybe that's not as accessible to people on the east coast.
Dara: I think there's something I mean, someone told me that you can get like the faux version in New York where you can like buy something and like keep it in your apartment granted, it's not going to be the same thing.
Dr. Hoehn: That’s amazing!
Dara: In the summertime at least, you know, we do have access to some parks here so we can and especially people who have, you know, pets who take them outside or,
you know, kids or families who want to go to a park, there's definitely avenues. It's just in the winter time, I feel like it's a little more challenging to get that. And Rena and I speak about it all the time, you know, how it's so nice to get out of the City, you know, for a weekend, just to be somewhere where there's more nature around us.
Dr. Hoehn: And less screens, right? I mean, I think that that's like, again, I just sometimes I feel like I can't believe I live in LA and people are just staring at screens and kind of living in Cell Block D and And, you know, there's a whole entire world out there that,
I mean, again, we consider human beings to be this connection between heaven and earth. And I challenge patients to really think about that context, right? So I think it's a really interesting part of Chinese medicine.
Dara: I wrote that down - uderstanding your place between heaven and earth. Oh, I'm going to use that one. That is so beautiful.
Dr. Hoehn: You guys have had a million acupunctures on this show. I'm sure they talk about that all the time!
Dara: Never, first time I've heard that.
Dr. Hoehn: Oh, girl. Okay, yeah, that's it.
Dara: We needed you on, we needed you on. -
Dr. Hoehn: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think maybe thinking about what it means to think about Eastern philosophies, right? It's all about balance. It's about yin and yang and that difference. between yin and yang and that the thinking about that interdependency, right? So you can't have yang alone. It has a little bit of yin in it and vice versa. And we think about that with the menstrual cycle or you would be way into seasonal eating, right? So thinking about the thermal nature of food and how you can really complement where you are in your menstrual cycle as opposed to thinking just eating the same thing every month, right? So we want to think about this seasonal nature and thermal nature of food while we're phasing our menstrual cycle, while we're doing a point selection, while we're doing herbal formulas. Like all of those things kind of need to come into play and be really interconnected, right?
Rena: Sure. So tell us too, you know, obviously the majority of our listeners are either trying to conceive or pregnant or postpartum. So say you're in the camp of trying to conceive, having difficulty. So if someone came to you with that sort of what would you, what would sort of like treatment modalities be protocol advice? What would you do?
Dr. Hoehn: That's an awesome question. Yeah. So it just depends kind of where they are in terms of that framework. Captain Obvious, right? But in general, I really. again, this goes back from my chain from being in the film business to now being a fertility person is just trying to really educate them and empower them about what their cycle means, what it is. And a lot of people come to me and they have no idea what the follicular phase is, no idea what the luteal phase is. And then they're using phone apps to track their cycle. So, thankfully, we live in this band task. time where there is an evolution of FemTech and this technology has really opened our eyes about a lot of the things that we've known about the menstrual cycle, about ovulation. So this is my favorite part. It's very life -changing and eye -opening for people when I'm like, okay, this is what you got going. And having them look at a graphic representation of, like, even what their cycle looks like so that we can kind of talk about those diagnostic patterns a little bit. And then making a differential diagnosis and helping them learn about their fertile window. And then really being almost like the Rosetta Stone between if we do need to go into an IVF framework and then this kind of more holistic approach to the medicine, right? So I feel like that is the role that I usually try to take with a new patient that is trying to conceive. So I make sure that they're connected with the right IVF doctor if that is what they need and that they're getting those full workups and we're kind of really ticking the boxes of all of those things as we get the body to a place where it can really start healing and also start preparing the palace, right? So getting ready for that embryo so that it can have a really nice place to implant.
Dara: So it sounds like you definitely try to tackle it on various fronts. Like, and I love that integrative approach. So it's totally….and, you know, my naivete when I first time I went to an acupuncturist was, okay, they're going to put needles in me in that set and send me home. And that's, you know, but it's so nice to see that there is so much more involved in it. And I was shocked. I had a three hour session, like, which was in the first hour was just talking about about history, and I think it's so great, and it sounds similar to what you do in that you really want to get to know the person and know where they are in their journey before you even put a single needle in them. There's a lot more to talk about and to work with.
Dr. Hoehn: Yes, and I love that. I love that about my practice too, right? I don't know how long I'm going to be able to do this, but I spend about two hours for my initial intake with people and then my follow -ups are an hour and I get critiqued all the time that that's not really realistic, but I really love to watch people and their milestones and coach them through their week. That is the best part of being a fertility acupuncturist, right? Because you're talking about something, you're learning something together as a team, and then they're going out in the world and they're executing this thing. My people are really, they're, I call it, I don't know if I'm allowed to swear, but their NFA-ers, like not fking around people. And they go out and they like, they're sharks.
They go out and they do stuff and then they come back. And then we talk about it and then we learn another chapter. Right? And so it's like really amazing to put them and have the ability to put them through this, like learning kind of progressoin where they're really evolving, right? So that they can have a great family life. And that's what it's all about, right?
Rena: Absolutely. And I feel like you really, like you have to believe it. You have to believe that this is going to work. You have to believe in the efficacy of treatment. Because I think otherwise there's really no, there's no point. I think, you know, and I see all the time you get people who come into treatment. They've probably never even heard of acupuncture before coming into the fertility world. They ask me, should I do it, should I not? And I always say, you know, if it's not gonna be an extra stress emotionally or financially, absolutely.
Dr. Hoehn: Yeah.
Rena: It's interesting to see sort of people's preconceived notions or how they really fall into it and it starts to love it.
Dr. Hoehn: Yeah, and more specifically just for your listeners, I guess the question would be, and I don't know, if it's been addressed on previous podcasts or not, but I will just say fertility acupuncture is enjoying an amazing time right now. It's very much like, I know I'll be at the medicine, as you guys know, has been around for thousands of years. We are having an amazing renaissance of time right now because there's so many great RCTs, randomized clinical trials, that show us that fertility acupuncture, even along with an IVF framework, can balance the hormones, regulate the nervous system, and really work on that peripheral vascularization to the ovaries and the uterus. So everybody's having better outcomes, right? And then in terms of natural conception, it's really interesting. It's great to see that change in people where they might not have conceived. They conceive a lot faster if they're in a fertility acupuncture program, right? And then we're also seeing on the IVF side, the outcomes are just phenomenal. I don't know if you see them at RMA, but you guys are huge supporters there, right?
Rena: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, we partner with Yinova Center, which is a New York -based treatment center. They have a couple of different locations around Manhattan and Brooklyn. And Darryl, they're off from Yinova, has-- been on our podcast. Definitely big believers in it.
Dara: I had no idea that there was actually specific training in fertility acupuncture. Is this something newish and how did you hear about it?
Dr. Hoehn: Yeah, I don't know. It was, well, we had a really great founder, right? Fertility acupuncture. I don’t know if ABORM,I think ABORM might be West Cost based. We had a really amazing person that created this additional certification and it takes extra training and extra time to do this certification. And it really, I think it's a really interesting distinction when you are looking for a fertility acupuncturist to make sure that they're not a generalist. And I personally think it's important because the training that you get was just, I don't want to say just a master's degree, because it's also difficult. But with a master's degree, it's very general, right? So it's like those people are maybe not as specialized? So it's like, I only work in TCC. So unless like somebody comes to me for knee pain, and I say like, unless you want a baby to come out of that knee, honey, I am not your person at all. Like, no. Like, I wouldn't go to a podiatrist to make a baby, right? So I think it's great. And I think it's an awesome time also to be just an acupuncturist because there's so much of a need for integrative health right now. And I went to school with some incredible clinicians. And if I get a psoriasis case, I send them to Dr. Black, right? The dermatologist person. And if I get a PTSD person, I send them to my other friends. So I think it's a wonderful time to just refer and say, you know what, this is not my specialty. I can only make babies, I'm really sorry. So I don't know. I think it's an interesting nod in that direction.
Rena: Sure, I think that's a great point. I think that applies sort of across the board, you know, as you're bringing up other examples too. It's one of the reasons I refer to reproductive psychiatrists for people that are trying to conceive or pregnancy or postpartum. People usually sort of get a little bit frightened by the price point, at least in New York, they're quite expensive. But there is something to be said, you know, what we're doing, you know, in terms of reproductive health is very specific. And it is important, you know, to go to people that are really trained in it who can really support you so that you're not bouncing around and getting bad advice. And so I think that's a great point to really look for someone who understands fertility, you know, not just sort of like a generalist acupuncturist. There are people and you're obviously out in the LA area so you're a great person out there. And then over here in New York, we have people that also specialize and it's really important to see somebody great and add that person to your team. team.
Dr. Hoehn: 100 % and I think it was the last episode you guys did and one of you I think it was Rena made a really amazing comment about this of like the importance of assembling a team, right? So it's just like this is a mind -body spiritual connection that you are about to do with making a baby and on your road to motherhood and we're not all going to do the same thing, right? So that's the beauty of it. And just to really have a bunch of specialists. Oh, I know, Rena, it was about your training for running. And you were like, oh yeah, I have a great wellness care team together and I was like, oh man, that is awesome. I have to comment about that. But it's the same thing, right? Running is just like making a baby. And since you have to have the right support system while you're going through this really, long, arduous training, right?
Rena: It's so important. I think it makes it all the better. Just get a few key quality people. Like it's quality, not quantity. And a few key quality people that you can rely on, that you can trust. And then you don't need to spend your time going down the rabbit hole of the internet or wasting your time seeing practitioners that aren't giving you the best advice. So it really is quality and not quantity, for sure, for fertility or, you know, other life pursuits, right?
Dr. Hoehn: Yeah, for sure.
Dara: So Dr. Hohnn, you have created, I saw it on your site, I, hopefully I'm saying it properly, the Chi Quality Egg Course?
Dr. Hoehn: Yes, yes, thanks for...
Dara: What exactly is that? Is this something that can be accessible to anyone even on the East Coast?
Dr. Hoehn: Yes. This is a super fun time. I was realizing that I was saying the same thing in clinic all the time, and I was like, "You know what? I'm going to build a series of classes for my patients." So I have three classes. I have Chi Quality Eggs, which is the first mini course I made. And then I have Sperm Success Strategy, and then I also have the Positive Pregnancy Project. So, the Positive Pregnancy Project launches, we're doing another, it was so successful, we're gonna do another cohort of it in June, but that is an eight week class, and that is the intersection of Eastern philosophy and more functional medicine and standard Western interventions in terms of fertility. And it's amazing, it's really fun. We had a great time with the first cohort, and we meet as a group once a week. There's a super fun Facebook community. There's tons of handbooks, the whole gambit, but…
Dara: So it's virtual?
Dr. Hoehn: Yes. Yes. Yes. And then there is the Chi Quality Eggs and the Sperm Success are going to be in a bundle called the Make a Baby Bundle.
Rena: I love it. And I love the name you came up with, too. That’s so clever.
Dr. Hoehn: Yeah, I do, too. I know I should have been a marketing person.
Dara: Your next career.
Dr. Hoehn: I know, my next career. If I'm not a bungee jumper, I swear, that's gonna be…
Dara: What? That's amazing.
Dr. Hoehn: I know, right? But yeah, so actually the Chi Quality Eggs class is cool. Like we've been putting people through that that are doing IVF support, which is great. So if somebody gets to us, to me, my office three months before the retrieval, I always make sure that they're doing that. That's kind of like their basic foundational coursework. They have that going for them. And so they have way better outcomes than they had before. So it's just really wonderful to see the success with that.
Rena: I love that, I have fantastic. And what a great, you know, I'm all about community too. So it sounds like another great community, safe space for people to connect as well.
Dr. Hoehn: Yeah, for sure. And then we have, I also have a group that I meet with on Sunday called the Bun in the Oven Buzz.
Rena: Oh my gosh.
Dr. Hoehn: And they're called bunnies, like all the people.
Rena: Oh my God.
Dr. Hoehn: Yeah, we have a good time in that group. It's a good group of women. I love them so much. But I usually highlight, I have a garden and I usually highlight a Chinese herb that I'm growing. growing or something that they can use that's very accessible to them, like a winter lettuce or like last week we talked about borage for a little bit because it's such a lovely source of GLA and how to like incorporate it into meals and stuff. So I'm, 'cause I'm a big gardener and a cook too. So we always talk about that stuff in the Bun in the Oven Buzz.
Rena: You brought that up 'cause I wanted to ask you about Chinese.
Dara: If there's anything that you, that you recommend, your top. Your top couple of your favorite.
Dr. Hoehn: Oh my God, I have so many feelings about Chinese herbs. I don't know if we have enough time. I'm gonna have to come back. We're gonna have to go out for drinks when I'm in New York. Okay, so herbs are very powerful, right? So as you guys know, but Rena and Dara, are you guys have both gone to acupuncturists and herbalists for a long time. You guys are Yinova people. So herbs are kind of like the right hand of the acupuncture point selection, right? So acupuncture is very powerful as a standalone modality, but the herbs, they take a longer time to compound and have an effect, but they can really complement what you're doing with your point selection. So you always want to make sure that you're making the distinction when you're interviewing an acupuncturist that you're also going to an acupuncturist that's also an herbalist because that way you're going to get that compounding effect of TCM, right? So, basically we look at specific diagnostic patterns. I just did a talk on this for Uva based on the basil body temperature chart and then we create a customized herbal intervention based on that diagnostic pattern that we see. So it's a graphic representation of what your cycle looks like. like. And then for example, if we see like, this may be too granular, but like a sawtooth profile in the follicular phase, then we would use a classic formula like Jawe Xiaoyao San, right? That's like, free and easy wanderer. And that will almost regulate the connection between the brain and the ovaries. So that can be just like a wonderful, it's got Dong Wei in it, it's got some really great adaptogens.
Dara: You just said something that was so cute, free and easy wanderer? I’ve never heard.
Dr. Hoehn: Oh, this is like, when you go to herb school, it's like, I swear, it's right out of Hogwarts. It's magical. And you get this big, huge, enormous book with all these herbs in it aAnd you're like, and then you get these really funny, there's one that's called Benefit the Whiskers, decoction, right? right? And or like the pillow from the golden cabinet. And they're just these like incredible translations of these really beautiful herbal formulas. And the tradition is incredible. I don't even profess to know half of the tradition of it. But free and easy wander is that like when a woman is really like moody or has a lot of PMS or things like that, free and easy wander will do just that. It'll regulate the woman's cycle so that they have a better sense of calm, right? So it'll balance out that what we call liver cheese stagnation, which is when our nervous system is dysregulated, maybe we don't have the right coping tools or we're exposed to maybe some emotional toxic environments that we don't really have a lot of control over.
Dara: I'm super fascinated.I've been to three of them. in my lifetime, to be honest with you, I've never spoken about herbs. So, I mean, and I've had, you know, two of the three were phenomenal experiences, but the fascinating thing is maybe that wasn't their specialty, or maybe that was something that, or maybe it was, and they just never spoke to me about it. So I'm super, the names and how it can affect specific organs?
Dr. Hoehn: Yes. Oh my gosh, completely. It's so just, we have a really cool diagnosis called liver overacting on spleen. And it makes so much sense, right? So if you think about it, the nervous system corresponds to the liver meridian. And so when you think about like when we have just a lot of stuck agitation and vexation and stress, it's going to dysregulate our digestive tract, which corresponds to the spleen meridian, right? So just even that alone just makes me so excited to talk about like, I mean, the patterns are really the diagnostic patterns are really true. You can just follow them. They make it very easy in TCM. It's a very like basic modular building block systems. Because if you think about it, the intervention had to be successful and easy to execute for billions of people for thousands of years, right? So it just really makes it very simple for anyone to follow.
Rena: That's fascinating. I would love to do some continuing education myself to do a deeper dive to understanding all of this.
Dr. Hoehn: Yes, you should. They're actually a shameless plug, but Cornell has a cool integrative medicinal herb class. I've been dying to take it. And then Aviva has one too. Yeah.
Dara: We should all take it, the three of us.
Rena: Okay!
Dara: I'm like fascinated with all the herbs. It's not something that I, again, I'm super familiar with. The other component is I feel like a lot of the Western doctors are not familiar with it 'cause it's not something that they were trained in. How do you feel like, is there a way of communicating with the medical doctors to really make sure that you guys are aligned?
Dr. Hoehn: That is such an awesome question. Actually, one of your other acupuncturists mentioned this too, and that, that is a... sticky widget, man, because a lot of times they'll just shut you down because they'll be like, I don't care what it is. I'm just saying no. So like they become like Doctor No in a way where it's like, okay, just because you haven't had the training in it, awesome, great. And so that's where it gets like,
it's specifically sometimes like, I got just got shut down and hard by a GI doctor and I was like, oh, I'm sorry, wait, are you talking about the formula that wrote for the person with massive diarrhea that's getting better? Cool, cool, okay, we'll circle back, right? So it's just like everything else that that patient had tried was not working. And then we did a classic GI care formula and they were like, oh my God, this is the first time I've left the bathroom in three days. So it's very extremely frustrating and I don't know the answer to that question. Like a lot of times even going through an IVF framework, it's massively, massively hard because like even just for example, IUIs, right? So if we were to talk about clomid and how it can has a propensity sometimes to thin the lining a little bit, in TCM pattern differentiation, that would correspond to like a yin deficiency. And so we could give give herbs to tonify yin, right? So that we're actually helping the patient later on if they have to go into a more extensive IVF framework, they would have that like, okay, cool. That lining is if it's potentially like a little thinner, that can be potentially tonified a little bit, right? But it's massively hard to get a reproductive endocrinologist or an OBGYN to understand what the herbs do. And to your point, there's little training to none on it, right? So it's just like nobody wants to work within a framework they don't understand.
Dara: But don't you feel like it would be so helpful if Eastern, Western doctors came together? Eastern could talk about what they're using. The Western could talk about what they're using. Because I think the problem is there's that disconnect and maybe you can speak from your side, your point of view, you know, you're familiar with clomid but in terms of the of the mechanisms of how certain medications work is really an understanding of whether there's a contraindication perhaps that some of them the meds on either side may not work together or whether we know if any of them could work together I don't think there's a lot of research on that -
Dr. Hoehn: Yeah, and totally to your point about this, like there's not, again, I said at the top of this call, like there's so many great RCTs for fertility acupuncture right now, and not so much for herbalism, because that would be, we're not pharmaceutical companies, and that would be massively really expensive to try to consider doing that research. And to your point about this, that perfect world where there's like unicorns and fairies dancing around in Western doctors and Eastern doctors like, I want that world for us too, but it just doesn't exist yet. And I think that they're, it totally should because we also as doctors, we all need to communicate better with each other, man. Like we need to, and I think that that is my thing as a clinician is my favorite part is I have a really great relationship with the reproductive endocrinologist I refer to. And we're back and forth all the time, like texting each other, like, "Hey, dude, what do you think of blah, blah, blah?" And like, I'm like, "I don't know, dude." And so it's just like this great dialogue. And I don't feel like I have that with any other REIs, but like, it would be great if there was a way to communicate more efficiently with everyone.
Rena: Yeah, absolutely. I think collaborative, integrative care is super important. And it's so much easier if you have a direct relationship with the RE.
Dr. Hoehn: Yeah, and I think this is kind of a personal question. Did you guys go through IVF? Did you?
Dara: We did, we both did.
Dr. Hoehn: That's right, I thought that it was, it's kind of, of a delicate subject But but did you have your acupuncturists communicate with your IVF doctor? I would have asked for sure.
Rena: Myself personally. I wasn't seeing someone quote -unquote regularly. It was like I saw some on 24 hours before a transfer in 24 hours after.
Dr. Hoehn: Oh interesting.
Rena: I wasn't, this is so long ago, probably before I… Now you know doing it now now with a bleach that I have, I would certainly see someone, you know, like yourself and do it much more comprehensively, but I was doing it very bare bones. But also to that effect too is because I had no insurance coverage for fertility treatment. And so I was also really looking at expenses.
Dr. Hoehn: Yeah. It gets expensive very, very quickly. I can understand that.
Dara: I didn't have an acupuncturist. I was definitely. definitely, you know, more in the school of Western Medicine, really until much later, but I'll tell you what, and I may say it said this in a past episode, but I first used an acupuncturist with my first pregnancy, 'cause I was, you know, she was cooked and I was ready to have her come out. That's why I went to an acupuncturist. Clearly she wasn't ready to come out and I blamed the acupuncturist. So it was not the acupuncturist's fault. My baby was not ready to come out. But it took until my second pregnancy when my daughter, my second daughter was breach.
Dr. Hoehn: Oh yeah, sure.
Dara: And I went to an acupuncturist and that was literally the turning point when I think she did some, is it Moksha, Moksha?
Dr. Hoehn: Yeah, Moksha on UB67 on the pinky toe, yeah.
Dara: That night, my daughter turned. And after that, I was like, "How can I not believe an acupuncture?"
Dr. Hoehn: I know. I turned a baby when somebody's on the table doing that before. And I was like, because, you know, again, I'm from the East Coast, like this is feels kind of woo woo to me as medicine, right? And I was like, I was even graduating, I was like, okay, I'm going to do this thing, don't worry about it, just not loading film in a camera anymore. Cool. And that first time I turned to baby, I was like, what is this?
Rena: Wow.
Dr. Hoehn: Yeah.
Dara: How can you not believe when you see, like that's, you know, and even Rena and I over the years, I feel like we, you know, we're definitely reading up a lot more about Eastern wisdom. And I mean, what was kind of the entire time I was, I've been speaking to you, I'm thinking, I guess she's not, you're typically, Eastern person, but Louise Hey if you've never read her book.
Dr. Hoehn: Oh, I have to read it.
Dara: It's one of my favorite books. You Can Heal Your Life.
Oh, okay. Thanks for sharing. And it's not your typical, you know, Chinese medicine per se, but she talks about how, you know, most of our ailments, I mean, start in the head, but it's like the mind got the mind body, like the connection and how it's all interconnected and interwoven. And Joe Dispenza, same thing. Joe Dispenza.
Dr. Hoehn: And then did you guys, I don't know, it's an older, it's an article called "The Science of Stretch," where we had, it's amazing, it was a study done at UVM a couple of decades ago. And this very super genius scientist mapped the gallbladder meridian. And so she took a sample. of tissue and she put it under the microscope and it really looked very erratic and then she took the same sample and she put an acupuncture needle in and all the fibers of the muscle aligned perfectly and so mapping the gallbladder meridian starts at the fourth toe and it moves all the way up the side of the body and at every joint it pivots the other way. And so the gallbladder in TCM we call that it's kind of the seat of decision making and indecisiveness. Right? You have a lot of gall. And I always think that that's really interesting that she was able to take all of the interconnected tissue and all of those systems and find all of the acupuncture points along that system as well. So it's a cool article. We read it in the doctoral program. It's amazing.
Rena: Oh I'm gonna have to check that out.
Dr. Hoehn: She's amazing too.
Rena: I guess one final question. I could talk to you forever before I wrap that would be to get your thoughts on stress So stress and infertility from an acupuncturist perspective would love to know.
Dr. Hoehn: You guys asked the best questions. Yeah, so again, we talked about liver overacting on spleen and you know I always try to put it in running from the lion on the African belt context for my patients. So back in the day, we had cortisol and it's amazing, right? It does so many things. It's good and bad to have stress. The stress about the running from the lion on the belt is that when we see that lion, we turn around and we allocate all of the resources to the fast, which muscle fibers of the thighs and the heart and the lungs, right? And so like, so we can run, right? We're not sitting in the grasslands making a baby or growing hair and nails. And so I always challenge people to think about what it is to run from the lion. Do you need to be running from the lion right now? And then I also think, Rena, that everyone regulates differently, right? So your ability to regulate your cortisol output and like what that looks like for you is going to look way different than it will for anyone else. And I think that it's really important to have an integrative health person with you that understands how to help you access that.
Rena: Great answer. Yeah, I love that. Do you really need to be running from the lion right now or can you just kind of ground and let time pass.
Dr. Hoehn: Yeah. And also, how do I meet that person as a provider? How do I meet that person? So this weekend, I had five new patients, three of them were trial lawyers. And I was like, I am going to put my seatbelt on because this is going to take a long time to unwind this and help them see the validity of what we're doing here in this office and then also how to create and instill like a transformational long -lasting change of how they look at their lives, right? So it's just a matter of trying to figure out what that looks like.
Rena: Oh, that made me think, just as a practitioner, how do you handle, I had a case recently like that where I just felt like, wow, this is going to take hours and hours of work to unwind and unpack and unravel, which is amazing. And I love a challenge, but also kind of daunting, you know, because in our work, we meet with people for a finite period of time. And sometimes it's, I find myself then getting a little overwhelmed. But as long as people are willing to do the work. and show up, I always have to believe in the process and trust the process.
Dr. Hoehn: Yeah. To your point, I always look at it like an Asana Task Board, right? So it's just like, I make sure that I'm meeting a specific milestone in somebody's care at a certain time. I'm sure you guys feel like this with your patients too. I'm like, "Okay, treatment five, I really want to be here." And so I always make sure that I'm like, I need to like course correct, like life is fluid, you need to readjust and make sure that I'm hitting my goals with people.
Rena: Absolutely. Yeah. Well, this is fantastic. I feel we could definitely have a part two, part three. There's so many other questions to ask.
Dr. Hoehn: I'm a super fan of you guys. I swear to God, I should have gotten my trucker hat on, but I really
Dara: You're hilarious.
Dr. Hoehn: I listen to you guys every morning. I think it's like, I don't, I feel so stalkery, but like, like those guys are so great. And then I looked at the notes and I was like, what? I'm gonna be on this show with the coolest people in the world? Like, oh my God.
Dara: You sent the nicest email to Rena, like, it was my honor, and it was just so nice. It was really, it really warmed our hearts when we saw it. And,
Dr. Hoehn: Oh good.
Dara: And just to see, really, it's so nice to hear your perspective, to see how you've really come into your own in this career path and how it's evolved and changed. I would love to have you on, just to really delve deeper into the herb component because I think that's something we really haven't spoken about, and I have zero knowledge. Rena may have a little bit more. than me.
Dr. Hoehn: I could talk about that. My only thing about that is that I can ramble in that department so you guys are gonna have to be like, shut up. Just stop.
Rena: Well, but I would love that too. I would love to do a deeper dive into that.
Dr. Hoehn: Yeah, let's do it.
Rena: Totally. Okay, so part two, stay tuned for the herb discussion. But until then, this is so wonderful. We are so happy to have had you on. And next time I'm on the West Coast, I'm going to come visit you for a treat. Dr. Hoehn: Oh, I'm so excited. And next time I'm on the East Coast, we are going to party with some green juice.
Rena: I love a green juice party. That’s how I start every morning. So the way we like to end our podcast, I'm sure you know, is by something you were grateful for.
Dr. Hoehn: Oh my gosh, after this recording, it's going to be really hard to match being on this recording, but I would say I'm really grateful for the opportunity to serve now. I think it was just a really pivotal path for me, and I'm excited that I get to be on this adventure and involved in transformational life change for people, and then also keep earning and educating and empowering people. I think I'm super lucky that I have the resources and the opportunity to do this. that.
Rena: That's beautiful. What about you, Dara?
Dara: I was feeling a little bit under the weather today but I'm going to try to pivot and reframe and I'm grateful for my breath and the strength of my lungs and I'm grateful that I can breathe even though I'm you know a little stuffy and I'm yeah I'm grateful for my health at this moment and for the health down the road. What about you, Rena?
Rena: guess along that vein, I'll say right before this, a dear friend of mine got in a very bad bike accident and is very seriously injured. They're going to be fine. But it was very sobering. And just a lot of thought of like, that could have gone very badly without a helmet and thank God they're going to be fine they're pretty badly injured but just one of those moments of how we take things for granted so really grateful for just groundedness and health and you know thinking about what really is actually a stressor like what lions do I actually want to run from and what is not right? It was a great perspective shift and moment to just really be grateful. So grateful for that.
Dr. Hoehn: All the best to your friend. I hope they're okay.
Rena: Yes. So thank you so much for coming on and we're super psyched to have you back. So nice to meet you
Dara: Thank you so much for listening today and always remember, practice gratitude, give a little love to someone else and yourself, and remember, you are not alone. Find us on Instagram @fertility_forward and if you're looking for more support, visit us at www.rmany .com and tune in next week for more Fertility Forward.